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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: New Ebony Banjo


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/163855

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DanKnowles - Posted - 11/26/2009:  16:13:38


Because the interest shown in building an ebony banjo rim, I thought some folks might be interested in following this new ebony banjo as it is being constructed. This is a instrument that I have been thinking about for a long time, but knowing the work involved I have to this point successfully avoided getting started. Seeing the posts on the Hangout though, pushed me past the pale and now I have got going on its construction. I’ll try to keep a blog/ log of this project along with a bunch of photos as I work this one through.

I am building this instrument for myself in hopes that it might come just a bit close to the tone of David Emery’s. Each instrument which I build is named and usually this helps with the theme of its design. For this one as of yet I have no name nor any satisfactory design theme. If anyone has any suggestions please feel free to send them along.

These are the banjos details and ideas to date. This will be a 5 string banjo with a 12" X 3.25" X 5/8" rim and a 25 1/2" scale. Both the neck and rim are to be primarily ebony, Gabon and maccassar. There will be veneers of both maple and Brazilian rosewood.

At present I am not planning on using a frailing scoop, instead I will relieve the fingerboard a bit near the pot. I like playing up high and I don't wish to loose those notes. I am thinking about using a resonator on this one as I like the response of my knee mute best with a resonator.

I'll be using a Bill Richard White Lady tone ring, tension hoop and brackets on this one. I will probably hand make the bracket shoes, either carving or casting them. I have had a lot of luck with both Gotoh and OME tuning machines so I'll probably use one or the other of them but make the tuning knobs myself.

I am currently not planning on doing a great deal of inlay work on the fingerboard, rather allowing the beauty of the timbers to show through. At present I am thinking of designing the peghead inlay in a very late Victorian floral type motif as this will be another in my Riverboat series. I have thought about illustrating the great steamboat race from New Orleans to St. Louis by the Natchez and Robert E. Lee, but I just don't know. That may be a theme for another banjo.


Edited by - DanKnowles on 04/02/2010 20:19:48

DanKnowles - Posted - 11/26/2009:  16:38:41


This afternoon I went through my stock of ebony. A while back I was fortunate to acquire a large stock of Macassar ebony. This is a wood which has varying degrees of grain striping and figure. It is not quite as dense, black or as heavy as Gabon ebony, still it is quite heavy and dense and is a nice wood for this use. Oddly enough this wood came as scrap from a hardwood flooring manufacturer's run of ebony flooring. Imagine ebony flooring! I was told that the flooring (unfinished) sold for $56 per. squire foot.

This wood was scrap and so there are many pieces which exhibited checking, knots, short length and other anomalies which make it unsuitable for fingerboards and other banjo and guitar work. Still through judicious cutting and inspection forty plus 5 ½ “X 1 ½” pieces were created.

The first job was to rip the strips down to 1 ¾ “wide and begin running them through the thickness planer. This batch was brought down to 25/32”.


Edited by - DanKnowles on 11/27/2009 17:59:02

jbalch - Posted - 11/26/2009:  16:47:55


Dan:

This is a fascinating project....an all-ebony 5-string banjo ...12" rim...Rickard tone ring...resonator...and a knee-mute. It will be a real powerhouse no doubt.

What are your plans for a resonator? Will you build it? What wood? Are you thinking about using a flange...or something close-fitting like an old Vega?


Edited by - jbalch on 11/26/2009 17:06:25

Ronnie - Posted - 11/26/2009:  17:11:00


Can't wait to see it!!

beegee - Posted - 11/26/2009:  17:34:07


Here's one by my friend Harry Lane, The Model M(Mephistopheles):


Edited by - beegee on 11/26/2009 17:36:25

The Old Timer - Posted - 11/26/2009:  19:11:08


How on Earth (or any of the other non-gaseous planets) do you bend ebony for a rim?

RB00 - Posted - 11/26/2009:  19:50:28


Dan,

How nice to see you on the Hangout! I've been a fan of your playing and instruments for a long time. You even gave me an impromptu clawhammer lesson at the Clarksville festival a few years ago. I hope you were able to make a bridge out of the piece of persimmon I gave you. This should be a really good banjo from the description!

Len

DanKnowles - Posted - 11/26/2009:  20:20:37


John,
I'm thinking of a modified flush fit, like the one I have on my cocobolo banjo. I'll probably make it pie style like the old Vega's.

Beegee,

What a georgous instrument! I bet it sounds great too. Is it made with standard mastertone parts?

Old Timer,

I thought about having a bent rim made by my friend Chris Melrose but the memory of David Emery's block rim made me choose the blocks. A ebony rim would be made with the same bending techniques as maple, heat & steam just more of it for a longer time.

Len,
Glad to be here. Yes I used that persimmon, it worked great. How is your clawhammer playing going? The last one was the finest openback that I have ever played, I hope this one comes near.

Does anyone know how to get pictures in these messages? I've tried and you can see how successful I've been.

Dan Knowles

melrosemusicsupply - Posted - 11/26/2009:  20:42:55


Dan,

I look forward to tracking your progress as you get into this build. It looks like its going to be a good one. I will give you a call the first of the week. I meant to discuss an inlay job coming up the other day when we talked.

Chris

Melrose Banjo Company

DanKnowles - Posted - 11/26/2009:  20:48:12


Chris,
Is that pictue you? I look forward to speaking with you.
Dan

melrosemusicsupply - Posted - 11/26/2009:  20:49:55


Dan,

That is my youngest son playing one of my ukes.

Chris

Will1717 - Posted - 11/26/2009:  21:03:44


Dan:

I just built up a titanium WL ring. Possibly I've found a home for it???
I'll give you a call.

Bill Rickard


Edited by - Will1717 on 11/26/2009 21:04:11

DanKnowles - Posted - 11/26/2009:  21:40:14


Oh my goodness, I bet it would sound great! I bet it may have found a home.

Dan

jbalch - Posted - 11/27/2009:  05:01:48


quote:
Originally posted by Will1717

Dan:

I just built up a titanium WL ring. Possibly I've found a home for it???
I'll give you a call.

Bill Rickard



That sounds like an awesome idea...Dan you might have your theme here.


Edited by - jbalch on 11/27/2009 05:02:43

jbalch - Posted - 11/27/2009:  05:08:05


Dan:

To insert an image in the reply...

1. copy the URL for the image

ie: banjohangout.ws/banjohangout.o...12009.jpg

2. Left click and highlight it.

3. click on the insert image icon in the toolbar

That should do it.




rudy - Posted - 11/27/2009:  05:46:47


Dan,
Thanks for presenting the build process for your new jo, it will be great.

This image and accompanying instructions for inserting images into a post is on my photos page:


jims38134 - Posted - 11/27/2009:  12:07:35


quote:
Originally posted by DanKnowles

I am thinking about using a resonator on this one as I like the response of my knee mute best with a resonator.




Is your knee mute a B&D or your own design?
Jim

bordertownbrown - Posted - 11/27/2009:  12:14:48


Dan,

What kind of finish did you use on the last ebony banjo?

DanKnowles - Posted - 11/27/2009:  18:12:34


John, Bill & Rudy,
Thanks for the photo help, if you look at the edited post above you can see that it worked.

Jim, as of now I am intending to use an old B&D mute, I have had a lot of luck with this thing... but now you have got me thinking of designing and that could be a dangerous thing.

Richard, I spirit varnished the last one and although it is a great deal of work I'll probably do the same here. Ebony just comes to life when French ed.

John, I talked to Bill today and he rang both the brass and titanium and there was major difference that I'm not sure that I can describe. I am looking forward to the day when I can hear it with my own ears and not just over a cell phone.

DanKnowles - Posted - 11/27/2009:  18:12:37


John, Bill & Rudy,
Thanks for the photo help, if you look at the edited post above you can see that it worked.

Jim, as of now I am intending to use an old B&D mute, I have had a lot of luck with this thing... but now you have got me thinking of designing and that could be a dangerous thing.

Richard, I spirit varnished the last one and although it is a great deal of work I'll probably do the same here. Ebony just comes to life when French ed.

John, I talked to Bill today and he rang both the brass and titanium and there was major difference that I'm not sure that I can describe. I am looking forward to the day when I can hear it with my own ears and not just over a cell phone.

DanKnowles - Posted - 11/27/2009:  18:53:37


Ok now that I have the photo thing working I'll post a couple of days work on the New Ebony Banjo.

It takes 8 blocks to make up a layer so 8 blocks were laid center down on my workbench. Tape was placed on the back (outside) side binding the blocks together. The center blocks were then carefully lifted causing the blocks to form a natural ring. This ring is now laid on my bench to check the joints. These must be perfect, no slop. Any loose joint could cause the rim to fail.

The blocks are now flipped so that the inside of the ring could now be facing upwards. They then have glue applied on one side of each. The glue is smoothed out using my little finger and the blocks are again rolled forming the ring and placed flat on my work bench.A large hose clamp is now placed around the ring and it is drawn snug. The ring is now placed between to waxed gluing cawls. These cawls are made from MDF board, I use a lot of this stuff around the
shop. It is stable and makes great jigs and forms. The sandwich is then clamped on each joint and I'm done with this for the day. I will glue one layer per day.
Here I'm checking the first block fo flaws.

booneroo - Posted - 11/27/2009:  20:13:33


Wow!!! That's killer!!!

Ol Lefty - Posted - 11/28/2009:  09:38:35


I somewhat started this ebony thing-the resurgence in interest- I cut most of my Gaboon into 1"+ thick by 2 5/8" wide by 2 3/4" long- side pie rings, and when I get home I will be gluing up- I think I can get a complete rim and three tone rings out of my stock. I appreciate the advice I received here. Ol'Lefty

DanKnowles - Posted - 11/28/2009:  19:16:43


Boneroo, Thanks for the comment, I hope you'll follow this one all the way through. I need every bit of help I can get with this project.

Mike, I'm glad to see that you're getting going on your ebony bpnjo, after all your post got this whole thing going! The fun part is turning that sucker... you'll spend more time sharpening your tools than cutting. The ebony is a real tool killer.

DanKnowles - Posted - 11/28/2009:  19:35:18


How cool, today I get to see how my work has come out. I open the sandwich and all appears to be well.

First with a sharp chisel I scrape off the bit of glue squeeze out from yesterdays gluing. Then I clamp a sanding plane in my vise (or is it vice!). This plane is made from 3/4" plywood and 1/4" plate glass it has handles and is quite useful for a variety of trueing operations. It was made for me by my son Sam and I get a lot of milage out of it. This one is 4" wide and uses adhesive backed sandpaper that I get in rolls from a supplier. This time I'm using 120 grit. I sand the layer dead flat moving it around the plane.

Next I choose the blocks for my next layer, choosing blocks for color and figure. The next layer is glued and clamped as before and the waiting begins again.

DanKnowles - Posted - 11/28/2009:  19:41:52


David Emery just sent this photo of the last my ebony banjo Sherry Lynn. Enjoy!

Richard Parker - Posted - 11/28/2009:  23:08:58


Dan,

Looking forward to seeing this amazing banjo as it progresses weekly. I guess I'm the luckily one on the forum because I get to see it here and in the shop. See you Tuesday.

Richard

Bob Robert - Posted - 11/28/2009:  23:59:00


quote:
Originally posted by DanKnowles

I am thinking about using a resonator on this one as I like the response of my knee mute best with a resonator.


I shall display my considerable ignorance here and ask, what the heck is a knee mute? I know that my dad would like for his knees to be quieter, but that's because he abused them for years and now they talk and complain, especially going down stairs. I'm not sure a mute would help that.

Also, I think that an ebony banjo would look great with a black head or a skin head, and all chrome/silver colored hardware. Real silver would look best, but that would be just a tad pricey, I would imagine. However you do it, I'll bet it's going to be a gorgeous banjo. Can't wait to see the finished product.

jbalch - Posted - 11/29/2009:  06:54:18


Bob:

The "knee-mute" is a device mostly found on Bacon & Day tenor and plectrim banjos. It consists of a spoon-shaped "soft-pedal" that controlls a spring-loaded mute mechanism inside the rim. When operated by the pedal, the mute applies varying pressure to the head underneath the bridge. There are lots of really cool sounds possible.

Dan has adapted a B&D knee-mute to one of his 5-string banjos for clawhammer playing. He uses it with great effect!

Here is the "soft-pedal" on an old B&D tenor:


Here is the internal mechanism:


Edited by - jbalch on 11/29/2009 07:03:32

DanKnowles - Posted - 11/29/2009:  18:40:21


Richard,
I'll have to shoot a photo of you so folks can see what one of my favorite banjo students looks like. It's good to see you here on the hangout, but it is even better watching you grow as a banjo player!

Bob,
I think John did a masterful job of explaining the knee thing-a-ma-bob. One suggestion though, check out the recordings of Perry Bechtel he was the master of the mute!
I like your idea of using a skin head, you've made me wonder if I used some black leather dye on a skin what it would be like. I may talk to my plater about silver, I really like that idea!

John,
Thanks for the knee mute explanation and photos, they are excellent!

Bob Robert - Posted - 11/29/2009:  19:33:18


Hm, thought I posted again, but I must not have submitted it.

The knee mute is pretty slick. Thanks for the explanation.

I think your idea of black leather dye on skin sounds good. The way I'm picturing it in my mind, you'd still be able to see the texture of the skin, which I think would be good. I think it would look better than a glossy black head. That would just be my thought, though, others might think differently.


Edited by - Bob Robert on 11/29/2009 19:34:07

DanKnowles - Posted - 11/29/2009:  19:52:39


Bob,
When I get to the shop tomorrow I may just grab up a piece of skin and try it. If I do I'll shoot some photos and post them here.

jbalch - Posted - 11/29/2009:  19:54:48


Dan: Check out this photo of the silver plating on my 1925 B&D #2. Not too shabby for an 84 year-old player. Silver might be a good choice for your ebony banjo too.


Edited by - jbalch on 11/29/2009 20:00:21

beegee - Posted - 11/29/2009:  20:03:58


quote:
Originally posted by DanKnowles
Beegee,
What a georgous instrument! I bet it sounds great too. Is it made with standard mastertone parts?
Dan Knowles



No standard Mastertone parts are used. The R.H. Lane banjos use tone rings, tension hoops and flanges that Harry hand-mills from solid brass or aluminum billet. The Model M is not mine. It's in Harry's collection. I have played it and it sounds fantastic and is very heavy. The flange has hand-cut sound-holes in the shape of bats. You can't see it in the pictures, but the devil-face has burning, glowing red abalone eyes. I think the Model A he has pictured is also ebony. The rims should be 3-ply maple with ebony veneer and abalone trim. My Model G is walnut with a 3-ply maple rim, walnut veneer and abalone and a hand-laid crotch-walnut resonator. The resonator flange fit is machined to such exacting specs that the resonator will not fall off if the thumbscrews are completely removed.

rhlane.net/music.htm


Edited by - beegee on 11/29/2009 20:05:19

jbalch - Posted - 11/30/2009:  06:37:30


Dan: I remember that this came up when you and David were discussing his ebony banjo project...some of the Bacon & Day #6 banjos (and #9s too I think) were made of ebony. I think the pearl inlay on the rim is an elegant touch.

There are examples here:
snapmania.com/album/CID-u00515...5:52.html
snapmania.com/album/CID-u00515...5:53.html[/url
snapmania.com/album/CID-u00515...5:56.html


Edited by - jbalch on 11/30/2009 06:40:14

DanKnowles - Posted - 11/30/2009:  17:14:16


John
Those are beautiful banjos! Is that the B&D Uncle Dave Days? I really like the silver. I've seen it used on some high end Gibson mandolin hardware. I think I will talk to my plating man and ask about silver.

The inlays and carvings on those B&D's is quite exquisite. I've been thinking about inlaying the rim also and I may. I'm planning on starting to design the pearl work in the next day or two. I'm currently thinking of doing a pictorial work picturing the steamboat race between the Natchez & Robert E. Lee.

Beegee

I looked at the R.H. Lane site and I am very very impressed, Lord -a-mercy what wonderful work...all of it.

DanKnowles - Posted - 11/30/2009:  18:12:57


Bob Robert,
I got to fooling with your idea today. I grabbed up a goat skin head, stained it black and mounted it. Neve having tried this trick before I was pleasantly surprised how it came out. What do y'all think? Here are some photos of the process.

jbalch - Posted - 11/30/2009:  18:19:29


Dan:

That is the B&D you say at Uncle Dave Days. You saw it before I cleaned it. There are several before and after photos here: banjohangout.org/myhangout/pho...umid=3269

I love the look of those old B&D #6 banjos. But I like silver plating better than gold...especially with ebony. Ebony wood...silver plating...and nice white pearl inlay could be an awesome combo...

I saw the skin head photos you just uploaded. That makes for a very interesting look. But it seems liks a messy process.

DanKnowles - Posted - 11/30/2009:  18:38:45


John
In truth it wasn't all that messy. I'm not sure where I would use this one. I may put this on the Pharaoh tomorrow. After all it is just a skin.

Bob Robert - Posted - 12/01/2009:  04:31:09


I like the way that looks. Just my opinion, though, and you know what they say about that. I think with all black and silver it would look very sharp, or classy.

DanKnowles - Posted - 12/02/2009:  20:22:14


Bob,
I'm glad you like the way it looks, I think it might be a neat addition. I also think on a very modern looking instrument it might be quite effective.

DanKnowles - Posted - 12/02/2009:  20:36:59


After a couple of days spent teaching banjo, guitar and the inlay arts, I have a bit of ebony banjo time. Much like before we go breaking down the clamps, scraping the squeeze out, pre-pairing the next layer, gluing and clamping. One should note that when the ring is first glued, rolled and hose clamped, but yet before the cauls are applied, it is a good idea to clean up as much glue squeeze out as possible. This saves a lot of work later. Also, I've found that when tightening the hose clamp it is a good idea to put a clamp on the hose clamp tightening apparatus so the clamp does not twist. This helps keep the hose clamp from breaking down quite so soon.

Now the waiting begins again. Tomorrow comes the real fun of doing the capping of the rim.




DanKnowles - Posted - 12/03/2009:  17:43:21


Here is a job that I find a lot of fun. I will be making and installing the cap rings. There will be two thickness of cap rings. A maple 1/8" ring and a 1/4" figured ebony ring. I made the blocks up for each back when I was cutting blocks so all I have to do is grab them off the shelf. first I take the maple and lay all eight of them out on a piece of wax paper. Picking up one block at a time I apply cyno (super glue, to the uninitiated) to only one end. For this job I like using the thick glue, it is a bit of a slower set. Unfortunately this day I have no thick, so I apply a whole bunch of glue to one end and carefully position and place them together. Holding the blocks tightly in position I squirt them with accelerator. They set almost instantly. I move on, gluing one at a time making up the ring. The last joint is always a bit difficult, but if I just remember to clamp the ring to the bench, it gets real easy to hold the joint together. The ebony ring is built just like the maple.

After the rings are complete all of the glue is scraped and sanded and the rings are hand sanded evenly using the glass bottomed sanding plane. Glue is smeared on the rim and first the maple then the ebony rings are laid in. One note and although this may be a bit late in the describing process, when laying up blocks all of the joints should be staggered, none of the joints should be above another. The new sandwich is now placed in the cauls and clamped. The waiting begins again.






jbalch - Posted - 12/04/2009:  17:12:31


Nice progress Dan! That is going to be a great looking rim.

DEmery - Posted - 12/05/2009:  05:48:17


Dan I have been following your work and recall the hours of discussion during our ebony project. Keep the updates coming and I'll keep checking in. David

DanKnowles - Posted - 12/05/2009:  06:00:46




RIM TURNING DAY!

OK today is the day I have been wishing for. A chance to be covered from head to toe with fine black ebony saw dust! There ain't many days when a I get to hold several hundred dollars of wood in my hands, set it to spinning in my lathe and realize that one bad move with my gouge and I have acquired some very high priced firewood.

Before I ever place the blank on the lathe, I want to remove as much wood as posable.

I lay out the basic circle shape on the glued up blank using a oversized template. I mark the wood with a white pencil which makes the lines much easer to see. I take the blank to the bandsaw and cut the outside shape.

After removing as much of the waste wood as posable, the blank is mounted on the lathe head and I begin turning. The lathe spins the rim at about 400 rpm which is moving fast for such a big piece of wood. The greatest difficulty in turning this ebony rim is keeping the tools sharp. It feels as though I spend more time sharpening than cutting. The first job is truing the blank. The sides must be square to the bottom or top and the od. just so. Because of my chuck head I am forced to cut the outside, top, fit the tone ring and about 3/4 of the inside then remove the rim, flip it over and cut the bottom and the remainder of the inside. After all is trued up, I cut a rabbit (slot) for the purfling. It is installed by diving the purfling into the slot with a small ball-peen hammer. It is glued using cyno which is applied both inside the slot before the purfling is driven in and the applied on the outside, I want that thing glued. The purfling is then trued to the sides with a scraper and the entire rim is sanded to 800 grit on the spinning lathe. I apply a thin coat of spirit varnish to the rim (as it spins), pull it off the lathe and admire the beautiful grain.

Next I'll start getting the neck and inlay stuff together.














maryzcox - Posted - 12/05/2009:  06:01:03


Dan,
Beautiful banjo--know that ebony sounds awesome.
Best wishes,
Mary Z. Cox

DanKnowles - Posted - 12/05/2009:  06:07:08


John,
I'll post some photos of the completed rim tonight... so you can (as an ole' buddy of mine used to say) "spend your opinion on it."

David,
Although this is a big multi-collaboration, I do miss sharing your thoughts, it almost feels lonely working tis one out. Your ideas always spur me on.

DanKnowles - Posted - 12/05/2009:  06:10:12


Mary,
Thanks for checking. I've started to work on the inlay design and perhaps tonight I'll post some of that. I appreciate everyone who "spends their opinion " on this.

jbalch - Posted - 12/05/2009:  06:33:31


Dan:

I'm always willing to "spend" my opinions freely.

Unfortunately I find they have very little purchasing power....

The EB2 is looking great!


Edited by - jbalch on 12/05/2009 21:27:40

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